SOE Blacklisted

I understand this is a rule “Don’t make money off of FiveM. Not even your game services. Covering costs incurred from third parties (server rent, product licensing, …) is fine, however any additional profit (including ‘donations’ other than to cover acute costs) is not” But they are using it to pay the server rent to keep it up and running, so technically they have not broken any rules and should not be blacklisted.

“Even though the goal each month is set to $100 to help with server cost, the donations exceeded this goal drastically! All donations are applied to the server and because of another awesome month of donations, our dedicated server was paid for up until July 2017, and this month pushed it up unitl November 20, 2017!!! I’d like to personally thank everyone that has donated, we all appreciate it.” -J Kelly

Thank You.

well there is no way for them to know how much was used for the server etc all it is they are tired of people not sharing and making profit of making scripts

“acute costs”. Allowing donations over 6 months in advance does not count as such at all.

Blacklisted? So this means the server doesn’t show up on list? The IP is hardly a secret. The hardcore RP’s have no problem throwing money at SoE, SoE just doesn’t know when to say “we’re good now, thanks.”

The IP is on the forum, Not really hard to find. Just FiveM being stupid thinking they only have GTA server. That donate system is for loads of servers.
Why can’t FiveM OPEN donate system? So you have FIX & make FiveM better?

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@Lukeyguy because then it becomes about the money not about the code. What makes FiveM better is making code, sharing code and knowledge. Money and open source mix as well as oil and water.

@HST How will it become about the money & not the code? Money pays people to make FiveM better & it guys the devs money to support themselfs & if they need to pay a dev in the future & We the community all get a better program lets be real atm its very buggy servers as the link i posted. Money would bring someone that might be able to work out tht issue knowing he will be paid to find this error.

Right, but in this case – everything is going back into the server to continue to run the gamemode, and if players are donating in order to support the community, then what exactly is the issue? They’re not getting ingame incentives for it (as far as I understand) nor is there any sort of paywall. People are choosing to give money to these people because they like the server that they have. There is no paywall, no “pay or else you can’t play on here” involved.

So, why is this an issue, exactly?

They’re not extorting people, nor are they locking “FiveM” features or “GTA” features behind a paywall.

People are playing their server and going, “wow! I really like the effort this community puts in, and I like the staff team, the website, the scripts they make, and I’d like to play here more often! So I’m going to donate!”

I strongly suggest you look at how games such as Minecraft did it, or how the Nexus, probably the biggest modding community, allows people to take donations – because producing custom content is hard work. So far, everyone’s mentioned the programming side – but I make models, rig them, heck, I would animate for GTA V if the tools were available – and I see no reason why I, or anyone else, shouldn’t be able to receive donations as long as nothing is locked behind a paywall. Just incase, I’m not trying to argue, but, I’d like to initiate an actual discussion about this.

I use a non-pirated version of Maya, Max, etc to work on my models and I get charged quiet a bit a month to use those. As you said, “Covering costs incurred from third parties (server rent, product licensing, …) is fine,” so suddenly, can I cover the cost for that? Currently I pay $185 a month for Maya, and let’s say I use it to make content for my server. Can I then charge my $100 fee it cost to run my server, plus the license fee from the products I need to use to create said custom content, and then have the limit be $285?

I hope you see why this is kind of annoying and convoluted.

Alternatively, some people set up Patreons for their servers which bill monthly. You can’t exactly just say “don’t give me more money” on there, nor is removing the donation button of your website as soon as you hit your “$100” server cost goal an option, either.

Honestly, I feel the EULA should probably be reworded to locking content behind a paywall.

This is next bit is more so in reference to people who speak about scripts being public for knowledge.

There’s nothing you can, or should do to stop people from making their scripts private, opposed to open source, either.
Again, it’s a lot of hard work – and if someone wants to keep things on their server that make it unique to others. I don’t see the issue. If you like something, you may make it yourself – and it is at that persons discretion to release it or not. Which is what makes FiveM/FiveReborn cool, by the way. You have chosen to release it, which is very much appreciated.

edit: and just in-case, I’m not affiliated with SOE.

Oh, and not to mention – you’re assuming these communities run solely FiveM, what if they have other games running too that up the expenses? Do I now have to take separate payments for FiveM and my other servers? iirc I can’t have two Paypal business accounts. SOE has Starmade, 7DaysToDie, and so on. I have Source mods, GMod (which I get clients from to usually continue running my server), and Rust running for example. What about the “licencing fees” for the tools I use for those, that I get help covering the fee from the community I run? Again, do I now need to separate payments?

“Money and open source mix as well as oil and water” – as a friend put it, “Richard Stallman disagrees.”

Does it then get into asking for proof of said servers and so on? Again, this is a kind’ve weird EULA the way it’s worded and can be subjectively interpreted in so many ways, and hinder other communities.


There can be a debate, begging, pleeing all day long. FieM doesn’t care, there’s nothing to make them care.

  • What can you do when blacklisted? Nothing, suing won’t work, not even class action would work, would probably be laughed out of court.

  • If fivem cared about the community, there would be better documentation instead of a few pages that cover very little on a wiki that who knows if anyone with real world experience is even running. Policies and agreements wouldn’t easy to understand with no confusion.

  • There have been issues with the initial UI, not just for a few months, but since the inception of FiveM, before the lawsuit, before any investigators got involved. The issues have not even been acknowledged let alone any attempts to fixe. Yet, they’re so obvious, my 8 year old doesn’t have to look to find them.

  • Every update release doesn’t fix anything, just further breaks FiveM. Instead of “Yay, we got fixed” on our server, it’s “aw shit, what did they break this time.” We have contests to see who can cuss out FiveM the best with the most relevant issues as motivation. Then we end up spending hours fixing broken mods because fivem doesn’t release any information on the updates, let alone “Oh, we changed how function x works, this is how you’re really supposed to achieve y”.

  • I have reported issues that I can easily fix. Do any developers respond? How about an invite for me to help them fix some of these issues? Not a damn thing. Yet, I’m not the only one with the issues. Heck, there’s discord servers dedicated to people helping each other out while the official discord channel, so i have heard from so many, is full of uncaring something or anothers making you think it’s your fault.

If anyone really thinks FiveM gives a damn, think again. There’s no reason for them to care. None of the competition is even working. GTA:Orange might one day work, but I wouldn’t hold my breath, apparently they have already had a botched public test and have yet to pick up the pieces. Try contacting them, they ignore you like they probably ignore everything else that would make a custom GTA server like what we try to build worth while.

When debating stuff like this, keep all that in mind. Reality can be pretty cruel at times.


keep in my its all because of CLOSED communities and not sharing work

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Right, so why should they have to share work?

My community, regardless of donations or not – will have the work, for the most part, closed. I’ll contribute here and there, but I’d like to make things unique to my server, so that there’s incentive to play on mine, with the hundreds of hours we spend making things.

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and you don’t think this spend 1000’s of hours to make the framework?, its all because nobody ever shares and then the community suffers from it

“Which is what makes FiveM/FiveReborn cool, by the way. You have chosen to release it, which is very much appreciated.”

I addressed this.

Please read what I said. I am not forcing them to release it, they are releasing it at their own discretion which makes it so cool and appreciated, however – I’m (1) addressing the issue with not allowing donations, you seem to have skipped over everything I said in regards to that, and licensing fees. You seem to have read over that. (2) Plenty of people share in many communities that allow donations. Look at GMod as an example. You can’t argue against the infinite amounts of content on there.

Money gives incentive for people to work on these things. There’s people such as my friend, who have a job and need to take time off to work on the server sometimes – so donations help with that, for example. It gives people more time to develop the things they need to work on.

As a hypothetical, they could so easily say “any script that is monetized must be open source” or alternatively, if they really want everything to be open source, they could say “any script published under this API must be open source under the GPL”

There’s plenty of things they could do to force an “open source” community, but that’s not what this is about.

Donations are a good thing, typically. Open Source isn’t suddenly phased out when money gets involved, that’s ridiculous. There’s plenty of for profit firms that write Open Source code. There’s plenty of people who get money for the things they do and continue to develop open source projects. As far as modding goes, typically, donations would make someone want to release something opposed to keeping it private.

I sure know I would probably consider releasing the stuff I plan on keeping private if I get donations. Anyway, regardless, donations or not – people who want to keep their stuff private are going to do it anyway, and specifically they will with no monetary incentive.

Now, I wasn’t even arguing about this – so back to the subject at hand: donations for communities.

This is absurd and pedantic. The bottom line is: SoE is not making a profit. Therefore they are not in violation of FiveM’s terms, and this whole blacklisting situation is a major misstep on the part of the FiveM devs. Please correct this immediately and end this ridiculous situation.

Right, it seems they word that the FiveM devs are looking for is a “nonprofit”, none of these “if you have x, then you y” or “acute cost.”

They want servers to be a nonprofit. Their purpose is not to maximize profit. Everything they do should be reinvested into the server, in one way – or another.

Regardless, I’m very uncomfortable from what I’ve read of SoE’s side about a FiveM developer supposedly going into the server and spawning in money and so on.

Also, what about people who monetize their videos on YT? Twitch streamers? Are they free to go?

Again, I’d like to have an actual conversation five the FiveM devs here to get their side.

If we’re supposed to be this community that helps each other and is part of a collaborative, then I think that needs to start from the top. We need to be able to communicate with the developers in an open manner and convey ideas to them. We need to be able to explain why we feel certain ways and work it out together. This shouldn’t be an us vs developers, this should be us having a reasonable discussion with them. I’ve yet to see a reply, and I hope this thread isn’t just ignored – because as far as I am concerned, this definitely sets a precedent then.

Oh god, a bunch of content to reply to.

The issue is servers are making shittons of money, yet we at FiveM can not offer any donation option at all due to pressure from Take-Two Interactive that’ll spin any attempt at monetization as ‘the developers are only doing it for profit’, as happened under the previous ownership - donations were opened up, 2 days later the main developers had a court filing in their mailbox.

Yet said server probably wouldn’t even exist without the FiveM platform.

Nowhere was it stated that such was considered an issue.

And the same people somehow despise FiveM itself, even for issues that are not the developers’ fault.

actual commercial title with original content, also they have terms of service forbidding monetization as well, don’t they?

if it is through a centralized system, do note this policy is until we figure out the legal requirements for a sane monetization strategy that benefits both server owners and the project itself. and again, that’s not ‘mods for mods’.

if said models aren’t specific to FiveM or a FiveM server, the ToS allow you to do so fine.

Yes. We can’t really do full review of profit people make, but if they make ‘donations for 8 months in advance’, these are clearly not ‘acute costs’.

Then don’t use ‘Patreon’ if it does not allow adhering to the terms of service.

How is it not? PayPal’s API for instance would allow this just fine.

Which wasn’t the original intent at all. As long as servers will run a profit while FiveM itself can not gain any monetary funds sanely, this term will stay.

That is a guideline, not an official stance. Also, it doesn’t reference ‘scripts’, just ‘game native usage that has been found out’ - no need to release your entire script just to document how you found out to use one particular native.

Until there’s a monetization strategy in place to allow servers to sanely monetize, yes. The same would go with any other service/product that works on a royalty basis, however.

If anyone from your communities would get in touch with us to detail issues they have or help figure out a way that this project can be monetized other than out-of-pocket payments (which for lawsuits aren’t very viable at all), their wishes will be honored - however, as you reply later on, everyone kind of seems to hate this project in the first place.

That’s the point for now, to prevent people from trying to garner any recourse when their servers end up unlisted. We don’t have the manpower to work on a proper solution 24/7.

We have an internal advisory board, 3 inactive developers and a single developer that is somewhat active, but working behind the scenes, and busy as well. We already lost the original developer of FiveM (NTAuthority) to legal issues that could’ve been prevented had the funds that these ‘communities’ get been available to this at all, and appealing to get him back would raise a cost of EUR 22000, as mandated by the German court system.

Discuss sanely, like happened recently in this topic, perhaps. Future releases will include a mandatory contact point provided for servers so the owners’ side of the story can be heard, too.

As above, we don’t have the manpower for documenting the system at the same time as developing it - documentation can only be written by those understanding the system, and those usually tend to be busy attempting to improve it, and would have to take time off from actually working on the codebase to write documentation of every tiny detail, including those that aren’t set in stone at all.

“The initial UI”? If you mean the server list UI, do note that it got a minor update a few months ago, nobody mentioned anything wrong with it on the forums or any other offiical permanent channel ever (the Discord, while frequented by staff members, is not official at all, as it is owned by someone not related to the FiveM project itself), and at the time he got visited by a court bailiff, NTAuthority was working on a complete overhaul to this UI and was very close to finishing it, but he could not deliver this due to the fact that the court case was handled like complete baloney.

Every update is tested to see if it does not break any common public servers, and as this is a project based on reverse engineering a game that uses DRM, we can not implement automated regression testing easily. If anything ‘breaks’ and is reported, a fix is usually released fairly rapidly - however most people’s reports don’t really include any information that can help our developer/s fix these problems.

And it’d be neat if 'your server’s community would provide actual reports as to what happened without pre-emptive negative sentiment.

Every update nowadays has a changelog, and any INTENTIONAL change in game code functioning usually is documented - however we don’t have access to your server’s source code, we don’t know what the hell your servers use, and if you don’t report what ‘breaks in updates’ we can’t do anything to fix it either.

Any update should have 100% compatibility with previous releases, and if we find an issue during testing that breaks compatibility, we annotate this in the changelog.

If you pre-emptively decide it isn’t worth reporting any of these issues, it’s also not your right to complain about this.

Other than C# API issues (as the developer responsible for the C# API currently lacks access to his PC), any actual issue with a proper repro case actually gets fixed pretty quickly. We would develop the project completely in the open, accepting pull requests and all, if only we could have the legal situation cleared with a lawyer backing us – which isn’t possible due to the cost of such, which brings us back to the whole issue this EULA is attempting to address.

The ‘official Discord channel’ isn’t official nor is it frequented by any of the developers, and again is owned by people completely unrelated to the project development team (the ‘cfx system element’ users on the forums, like me) itself.

If the legal standing of the project were clearer, we could have developers frequent this chat and provide actual help - however because Discord is a closed service that does not allow server extensibility for anonymity (like the element system on the forums), this is not possible.

Posts on the forums, however, usually get addressed by a developer.

If this is your view, we strongly apologize for that. Again, posts on the forums that are elaborated properly do get properly elaborated answers in return.

Nobody has to share, it has been explicitly stated ‘to the maximum extent possible’. Also, ignore @GanjaMonster, he’s a complete idiot who has no affiliation with the project itself but is friends with one of the main investors in the project so none of the actual developers can get rid of him.

As I’ve heard it, that mainly turned into a community of ‘paid add-ons’ and resale of stolen/leaked scripts.

Because he’s not related to the project, whatsoever, and completely missed the point.

I’ll ignore the sharing arguments as they are not related to the spirit of the EULA - however a lot of ‘server drama’ that we are exposed to seems to mainly stem from servers with barely any custom content that make massive amounts of money from donations.

As said above, only acute costs can be covered under the current terms. If any member of this actual community - and not some random internet warriors posting in a topic like this, this is why we need actual contact points for listed servers - can respond stating evidence of their donations matching intended server costs, we’ll restore access to their servers.

This blacklisting was done using primitive tooling based on a report from a community member - apparently that report has been mistaken.


If the guy meant is @Kanersps, he is not a project developer, he’s a friend of the primary investor and therefore we can not get rid of him. He’s caused various conflicts with both server-owning communities in the past, and released various ‘official’ resources that are completely and utterly broken, yet is seen as a god by most of the community just because he’s a ‘team member’. and a ‘founder’ on the (unofficial) Discord.

This can be done on the forums, as happens in this topic right now. More openness than we already give is hard while the legal state of the project (and the original developer, who’d get quite some blame if we’d continue openly) is still in question.

Perhaps the EULA was mistaken - it is again merely a stopgap measure until a proper monetization-allowing strategy (potentially specific deals to have certain server owners pledge to contribute a fixed amount, potentially some other means) has been established, in a way that will not cause TTWO to perform a synchronized raid on the projects based on non-existent legal grounds.


[quote=“EULA”]“Game Servers (listed on the Game Services, or otherwise utilized using FiveM) may download
content (hereafter “User Generated Content”) to, or run computer code on the Users’ device.
The User Generated Content is copyrighted by their respective owner, and the provider of Game
Servers asserts that they are authorized to transfer said content to the Users, and, allows
CitizenFX to distribute, adapt and/or modify the User Generated Content through automated

To me, that sounds like entire source codes will be redistributed. Not just native uses.

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Right, thank you for a reply.

I’ll be replying to this as I go.

Expect this to be edited in a bit, just wanted to thank you for actually replying, also – ideally, Discord might be easier to have a conversation about this.

Right, so is this about you not making money, yet they are – or is it about the worry of a lawsuit? I suppose you could look at angular.js for reference, they don’t make money off the framework that they have. That’s the pain in developing a framework. They distribute it as an MIT license.

Much like the original FiveM by Bas had the MIT license, which states:

Copyright (c) 2014 Bas Timmer/NTAuthority et al.
Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy
of this software and associated documentation files (the "Software"), to deal
in the Software without restriction, including without limitation the rights
to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell
copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software is
furnished to do so, subject to the following conditions:

The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in
all copies or substantial portions of the Software.

I think it’s worth keeping the “permission notice shall be included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software.” – unless you got it licensed in some other way.

That aside,

No one is disagreeing with this. I know it wouldn’t exist with the FiveM platform, but they’re reinvesting back into their own servers as a nonprofit. Is that an issue, now? Regardless, again, pretty much any framework has to deal with the same troubles, such as angular and even the original FiveM framework.

Right, I’m saying that as long as there isn’t a paywall from the features that the FiveM team develops it shouldn’t be an issue.

I don’t know what this has to do with you and I speaking about the EULA right now. It’s quite obvious that you’ve attracted a lot of “normies” for lack of a better term who don’t understand much about game development, or the hard work it takes to get here. They don’t understand that a custom server script not working is not the FiveM teams fault.

I’m sorry that you have to deal with that, but that’s not a representation of the community as a whole.

And somehow, if this is how you’ve been treated by the whole community – then get ready to get treated differently. I love this project and I want to use it as a framework.

GTA V modding could be huge. It’s an outstanding platform to mod on.

Right, actual commercial title with original content. Let’s say I make my original content for my server, am I then not able to do what I want with it? It is my content. I did spend the time modeling new clothes for civilians.

Ideally, I’d like it to be that way.

And as far as Minecraft goes, that’s exactly how it works. The monetization limits aren’t that you can’t get donations. You can’t lock features native to the game behind a paywall.

Thanks, I didn’t realize this. I just want to get my word in, because I want to develop for this framework more than anything. I do want to contribute to the community, but that EULA will stop me.

Clarify what you mean by this? Sorry.

Right. Once more, we’re back at the issue of can I take donations for it? Are you going to keep tabs that I’m making models in 3DSMax, and animations in Maya? which is then addressed here –

Right, but clearly they’ve invested it back into the server, as a nonprofit. The community they own, once more, chose to donate back to them. I think you should refine the terms to be “you don’t profit off of this, aka everything goes back into the server or can be for the server” – I don’t think it’s fair to take these people down for people willingly donating and them doing more to the server.

You’re right, here. Other than the average community not knowing any bit of code or honestly about how to probably use said API, but that’s not the people we’re discussing about, so my point is moot.

But why should people have to stop getting donations? Why should they have to say, “no, now stop.” if they’re constantly investing back into the server? Obviously, there’s a cutoff point – however, what if they want to invest back into the community itself? New webserver? Multiple GTA servers? Should they take the cost out of wallet and then hope to earn it back in next months donations?

Also, once more – this is completely ignoring multigame communities. Should everyone have a separate button for FiveM, a separate account for FiveM on paypal, and so on and so forth?

which you address here, just incase i’m misinterpreting this, I hope you really don’t intend on attempting to get royalties. That would be way too far. Take donations, definitely. Royalties from communities? Uh.

Anyway, again, this seems to be about the team not making money and it boiling down to you guys feeling it’s unfair.

What if the donations they got weren’t all from FiveM? It’s quite a bad way to look at it that you’re the sole reason why they got those 8 months worth of donations. (that they reinvested back into the server, again.)

Right, but I’m saying that it should be the intent.

Look at how GTA:Orange does their donations or something, if this is honestly about the FiveM team getting money.

I’m rather irate because honestly, this whole thing was written off as “we want a shared community, so we’re doing x and y” but if the reason is “we as developers also need money and we don’t want people making money off of a framework that we made unless we get money” then that’s a whole different story. It’s not “money = bad for open source” which makes me happy to hear that you don’t think that, but at the same time, I wish that had been more clear for all the people going “wow haha money is so bad and evil!”

Right. Good, and that was the full intent. We were also planning on writing API’s, possibly.

I definitely do not. I am very thankful in your effort to open GTA modding. I’d like to help contribute to said project, and we would be going fucking nuts on the source code to help, but it’s not available. Whether due to legal issues or whatever else.

Right, I’m not too sure here. I don’t assume Bitcoin would happen to per chance POSSIBLY be able to pay a role in this?

I’ll need you to rephrase this for me to understand.

Ahaha, thanks for clarifying that, appreciated!

Right, if this is what you’ve heard I don’t blame you. It’s the false stigma behind it. It has it’s occasional drama, but for the most part – there’s some really unique servers out there doing some really unique things with what they can, and donations really help drive that. It’s definitely not all like that, and it definitely has a very helpful community as soon as you get into it. Many many many developers who are “out of my league” in that community per se have gone out of their way to help me with small issues.

Just to show some of the unique projects and the effort we put into the work we do:

Donations help drive this, and keep the server running.
Which brings me to a point about the 22k euro that it would cost to help NTAuthority out.

Right, I’m not sure you realize how much these communities make, but it certainly isn’t that much.
Maybe as a collective.

We’ve ran a server for ~4 years, have usually constant 40/40 and some odd 30/30 on a side project of ours, and we’ve barely broken probably ~1.5k, all of which had to go back into the server to cover cost. Right now, I’m actually paying out of pocket since we can’t make it this month.

Yes, sorry, that was directed at Ganja – not the FiveM devs, nor the project.

Right, let’s not resort to name calling.

I want to develop on this framework, and the EULA concerns me. We’re a community, so let’s work toward a solution together, yes?

I’m not some random “internet warrior” trying to “fuck with the fivem devs xd because of muh civil rights” or whatever. I’m trying to find a solution to what I feel is a problem with this.

Right, I see that you guys seem to be nuzlocked a lot in regards to this. PM me on Discord about “investing”, Mars#1305.

And in regards to this, I feel a more stern approach needs to be taken. It probably should be higher on the list, than blacklisting communities that take donations.

Right, I posted that before you replied. I’m very happy this is happening, as people did portray you guys to be awful for some reason. I hope this is proof to those people.


So my takeaway from all of this is pretty much either:

(1) It’s viewed as unfair that servers are making money, while the FiveM team is not (feel free to correct me on this.)

(2) This is to cover yourselves legally.

So in those cases, is there any chance at all that it’s a possibility to perhaps reword it to be “nonprofit” or something similar? Again, I feel that if people are investing the money back into their servers and not going for the cause of “for profit” then I think it should go, specially when you factor in multi-game communities and so on.

I would really rather not have to separate things for my players, as when you donate in one place, generally you get benefits in all – (how I do my things) – and other than that, factoring in fees for all the software I use would end up with a ~$800 monthly limit, and I guarantee you – donations wouldn’t go to the licensing fees of that software (since I need to pay for it anyway lmao), it would go into paying for my friend and I to have more time to develop for FiveM.


Not pirated software.

Secondly, if there’s anyway we could perhaps start getting the community involved in the cfx-collaborative with the source code, perhaps not completely open – but definitely selecting members of the community to slowly be abducted away into it. It would probably help you and the community. A lot.

Again, not sure what the legal thing there is.

[quote=“zirconium, post:16, topic:9784, full:true”]

As said above, only acute costs can be covered under the current terms. If any member of this actual community - and not some random internet warriors posting in a topic like this, this is why we need actual contact points for listed servers - can respond stating evidence of their donations matching intended server costs, we’ll restore access to their servers.[/quote]

I am a very new member of the SoE community that has personally been affected by this. So, you are telling me that FiveM took action based on an allegation against SoE without even fact-checking first? That’s even more disturbing to know. It is outrageous that we have the current circumstances simply based on an accusation without evidence.

I would also love to know what “acute costs” even means in this context. I am unfamiliar, so I looked it up. A Google search of the term revealed that only FiveM uses this phrase in a manner not related to healthcare, and the service agreement does not even define the term. Being able to take donations indefinitely to allow for the server to run for an extended period of time into the future does not constitute a profit at all.

Then let’s remove the blacklisting and move on from this nonsense.